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IE must die.

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( Read 11 comments — Leave a comment )
opt513
Feb. 27th, 2004 05:54 pm (UTC)
This is why I use Firefox.
brentdax
Feb. 27th, 2004 07:02 pm (UTC)
So do I. Doesn't help me with webmastering.
countalpicola
Feb. 27th, 2004 07:04 pm (UTC)
Sure it does. Write for Firefox (well, the w3 standard) and screw the rest. If they can't take it, that's their issue, not yours.
akilika
Feb. 27th, 2004 07:08 pm (UTC)
Not a good attitude for a developer to have. Everything you don't support is that many customers you don't get a chance to woo. *shrug*
sangochan
Feb. 27th, 2004 07:18 pm (UTC)
Unfortunately, what she said is true.

I spent two years in school for webmastering. You have to design for the lowest common denominator, unfortunately, so the most people can see it.

IE is the most-used browser right now, even though it's a pain in the ass and not standards complaint. So, you have to deisgn with IE in mind first and foremost, then with mozilla, netscape, firefox, etc.

Sucks ass. No one likes it. At least, no one who does webdesign even semi-professionally.

But it's a sad, sad fact of life.
countalpicola
Feb. 27th, 2004 08:11 pm (UTC)
The standards exist for a reason.

They were created to guarantee that people could write code without needing to fork it to a zillion different environments.

IE will never become standards complient unitl there's some reason for it to. There won't be a reason for it to until people start insisting on using the standards exclusively. If enough pages break because they rely on the standards rather than IE's slight of hand, people will start complaining, not to the designers, but to Microsoft.

If web designers don't take that first step, nothing will change. Sure, early adopters are more likely to be burned, but their cause is just. Change can only happen once the development community starts demanding it. Not in words or with angry e-mails, but by writing for the standards alone.

Change doesn't just happen. Something needs to make it happen.
sangochan
Feb. 27th, 2004 08:27 pm (UTC)
If enough pages break because they rely on the standards rather than IE's slight of hand, people will start complaining, not to the designers, but to Microsoft.

In a perfect world, yes.

In the world of reality, no. They complain to the webdesigners, who were obviously "too incompetent to write good websites". (Yes, a direct quote.) Believe me, been on the recieving end of that. I pointed out my code was w3c complaint and perfect. I even ran it through the w3c's website checker. No problems.

The response I got? "I don't care if it's perfect. IT DOESN'T WORK."

So, another try there, Count-san?
countalpicola
Feb. 27th, 2004 08:58 pm (UTC)
> So, another try there, Count-san?

How about a rehash of one I already made?

You are but one person. One person tending to a flock of idiots who barely know what a browser is, much less the standards of how to write things to display in one.

Are you familiar with the notion of emergent properties? On a small scale, some things just don't work. But on a larger scale, things that couldn't happen on a small scale do.

Movements and social change all throughout history didn't just happen one day. It took some dedicated people, a few good men, who were willing to take a risk and fight for change. Shunned, ridiculed, persecuted, even killed; their path was not an easy one. But if enough people keep fighting, eventually others will too. It has happend all throughout history, and will happen well into the future.

Change takes time, there's no denying that. People are dumb. But for every person who backs away from change, the timeframe expands. Every line of IE dependent code written lengthens the time before people realize where the real problem is.

Fundamental problems can only be treated with superficial solutions for so long. Yeah, a band-aid may help slow bleeding, but if your finger has been chopped off, you're gonna need to find a physician at some point. I know I'd rather go right after the problem than put a little piece of guase and tape on a bloody stub.
brentdax
Feb. 27th, 2004 09:21 pm (UTC)
Count, it's really, really simple.

If I don't write code that works in IE, then people visiting with IE will be unhappy. They will complain to the people I design sites for. Sooner or later, those people will complain to me, and they won't give a shit whether or not I have some grand social cause behind my actions. They paid for a good Web site, and I gave them one that didn't work for most users.

Guess what? They'll go somewhere else and get a website that works for everyone. May not be as pretty, may not be as cheap--but the 90% of users that couldn't see it properly before will now be able to see it. They'll be happier, and I'll be poorer.

I write to Web standards all the time. I validate every site. Hell, I could probably fix this problem in five minutes by switching to a table-based layout, but I don't want to--it's the wrong way to do it. But I'm not going to ignore the software that everyone's using just because it's got a shitload of bugs--I'll make sure that the site works both in standards-compliant and broken browsers.

Standards compliance is a wonderful cause. I believe in it, and if I had any experience in the sort of programming necessary, I'd donate time to Mozilla and Konqueror. But it's not one I'm willing to miss A-kon for, or to be indebted to my parents for Navi for.
haibane_rachan
Feb. 27th, 2004 05:54 pm (UTC)
o_o Big.
elyscape
Feb. 27th, 2004 06:54 pm (UTC)
Scary...
( Read 11 comments — Leave a comment )